i like tacos.

This is a very stupid argument. Why do we do stuff in spanish? It is all about economics. Mexicans make up a significant portion of american population and that also gives them significant economic leverage resulting in cultural influence.

"Some of them are hard working and do fit in, achieve higher education, and go on to lead very productive lives. However, what I am against is the Mexicans who come in and think they can leech off us, and expect us to like it."

That offends me. Mexicans don't leech off us, infact we leech off mexicans. They work for under minimum wage and don't get benefits such as social security and health care. How many mexican bums have you met alan? MOST mexicans i have met are very hard working and try to live productive lives.

"John's example: An Asian family comes to the US, using what little money they have to get here and buy a small store. They operate that store with family, sleeping on the floor. They eventually make enough money to buy a second store, and so forth. Their children are sent to college, and become successful. After about 20 years, the entire family is doing pretty well for itself, and has moved up the socioeconomic ladder. Take a Mexican family who crosses into the US legally. They buy a shabby house and live there. Fourty years later, they are still there. Same place in society. They blame us for their "failure" and demand rights, money, funding. They feel we are descriminating against them, forcing them to live in sub-par conditions. Tell me, am I being unfair?"

Why is there a difference between the Asian and Mexican family? Because the Asian family entered legally and had the legal ability to do what they did. Mexican family couldn't enter legally and have the INS on their back. They don't have legal protection and no possible way to get financial backing as the asian family did.

"Tell me, am I being unfair? "

yes you are.

As far as tacos go, I love tacos.

I was talking about mexicans who have recently immigrated to america and not hispanics in general. I know nothing about cuban immigrants.

Auky, in my (John's) example, I used both groups entering legally.

And okay, so companies do stuff in Spanish because it's profitable. Then why do schools? They don't stand to make a profit!

Meh... I dunno... Plus I was high on diet coke and sleepy when I wrote this. Still, it IS my opinion that we cater too much to them, especially to the ones that DO enter illegally.

And Auky... the fact that they work for less than minimum wage pisses me off too. If they were legal citizens, it would be illegal to pay them less. Therefore, it must mean they have illegally entered. If they aren't supposed to be here, they are taking jobs away from Americans. I agree with Maddox... there should be a law that no one, not even illegal immigrants, can be paid less than minimum wage. If that happened, there'd be no incentive to hire illegal immigrants.

"They don't have legal protection and no possible way to get financial backing as the asian family did."
If they are illegal immigrants, they don't deserve legal protection or financial backing. People have a lower standard of life in other countries too. The fact remains that, if they cross illegally, they don't deserve to be catered to, and they don't deserve to hold jobs. Even if they ARE hard working, if they don't belong here, they shouldn't be here. If they're not citizens, they DONT GET social security or health care. And if they were citizens, why aren't they taking advantage of free education and moving up in life? Why are most Mexican students behind in the public school system? This is NOT a steriotype, it is a fact.

...And you still didn't explain why most Mexicans can't speak English. At the very least, concede that they should BECAUSE they are in the US, and the official language is English.

oh yeah?

well i like quesadillas. steak and cheese quesadillas. HURRAY FOR DOING THE SAME OLD SAME OLD!

And yes, I do think that students should learn how to read and speak English in the US, but you have to remember something: THis is arizona. Arizona is one of the states with the highest Mexican population. So, don't get too ahead of yourself...
Amanda

Screw the fact that this is Arizona! English is the official language of Arizona and every other of these United States. Spanish should be taught like every other foriegn language in school, crammed into 2 years somewhere in high school. Instead, you start learning Spanish in the first grade. As an example elsewhere, take Germany. English there begins in the 3rd grade, and they have economic reasons for learning english. Why must I see spanish? Why must I hear spanish? Why the hell do I not get to see or hear german outside of the house? Or dutch? Or Belgian? Or French? You know, those soviets did have the right idea about border guards... big walls that are guarded by armed guards. My parents were immigrants, and they spoke english (with an accent mind you, but it's still english). They also pay their taxes, teach their little boys to be good American citizens, and are generally respectable people. I'd estimate that all three of those would only applly to 1/3 mexican families. This does not at all apply to the Cubans in Florida. They know english. Heck, there ought to be a literacy proficiency test to get a driver's liscense. Actually make everyone learn english (and to know enough that English should be capitalized). Why exactly should mexican (any immigrants really...) have the same rights as a citizen? Heck, deportations, as bad as they are, are perfectly within the bounds of constitutional authority, even to legal immigrants. The US is actually very nice to people who live here legally, you don't get deported, your children are automatically US citizens (unlike elsewhere...), you can become naturalized within a reasonable amount of time (gaining all but one right of a US citizen, the right to run for president), etc. I'm all for cultural mixing, however right now this is not mixing, this is a hostile takeover.

im not making the excuse that just because this is arizona they are allowed to not know english, but i am just saying, this BEING arizona could be a reason as to why it is so difficult to have all (or at least the majority) of mexicans know spanish.
Amanda

America does not have an offically established language. English is not the offical language! I will rant more later, but I first wanted to throw that point out. Props to Akshat.

Auky, in my (John's) example, I used both groups entering legally.

uh huh...

how many mexicans do you know who have entered america legally and are bums or have the lower end jobs. I am not sure if you are aware of the whole legal immigration process but i can tell you this much....unless you are a refugee, the american government makes sure that you are bringing in skills or money that will enhance the american economy. My suggestion: please look at stats before making claims.

My prediction is legal mexican immigrants are just as sucessful as legal asian immigrants.

"And okay, so companies do stuff in Spanish because it's profitable. Then why do schools? They don't stand to make a profit!"

yes they do!

I as a spanish literate person have higher chances of getting into medical school, higher chance of having a sucessful medical practice because i can cater to the growing spanish speaking population and therefore a greater chance of economic success.

"And Auky... the fact that they work for less than minimum wage pisses me off too. If they were legal citizens, it would be illegal to pay them less. Therefore, it must mean they have illegally entered. If they aren't supposed to be here, they are taking jobs away from Americans."

Dude...they are not stealing jobs. It is all about supply and demand. Mexicans are supplying the labor needs of america. There is a demand for mexican labor!

Solution: Make them legal! and let them compete.

that was posted by

"AKshat"

"You know, those soviets did have the right idea about border guards... big walls that are guarded by armed guards."

hehehe...ok i just have to say this.

Are you going to get mexican workers to build this 2000 mile wall for you?

i vote wall.

like the great wall of china.

WALLS ROCK MY WORLD. But they don't turn me on...only plots.

Amanda

"My prediction is legal mexican immigrants are just as sucessful as legal asian immigrants. "
Okay. With that assumption, then let's also assume legal immigrants all speak fluent English and are relatively successful.

"because i can cater to the growing spanish speaking population and therefore a greater chance of economic success."
Exactly. You shouldn't HAVE to cater to them. Especially if they're entering illegally (as you're saying most of the "unsuccessful" ones do). All the legal ones already speak English. And note that I'm not talking about the foreign language electives that we all take in high school or elementary school... I'm talking about classes where the teacher teaches in Spanish... which, although it's been outlawed, it still happens. There is no reason why schools should be forced to provide bilingual teachers (even if not legally bound to do so) to students who are too lazy to learn English.

"Mexicans are supplying the labor needs of america. There is a demand for mexican labor!"
Because it's cheaper than minimum wage? With the assumption that legal immigrants are also the presidents, owners, whatever of the businesses of America, the labor everyone is hiring is illegal. If they're hiring illegal labor, then how can you say it's not taking away from American jobs? If companies weren't hiring illegal labor, they would then be forced to hire from inside the US... hire LEGAL residents.

"Solution: Make them legal! and let them compete."
People who enter illegally should NOT be given citizen status. That's just asking for a problem. First, it's one or two. Then, everybody is going to jump the border (or die trying) because, once they're in the US, they're a citizen. How is that fair to Americans, or to other nations, who have had to immigrate legally?

So English isn't officially the language of the US.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JWCRAWFORD/question.htm
"Before the last couple of decades, Americans had never provided bilingual ballots, education, publications, and similar services at public expense."
"Native-language accommodations discourage immigrants from learning English."
Then it SHOULD be. The majority of Americans, even the world, speaks English (I do concede that, percent-wise, Chinese is the most spoken language, but most other nations offer some form of an English class throughout their educational services). It is the most universial language. Classes are taught in English. Textbooks are in English. The cost of accomidating additional languages would be huge... especially when you consider that, to be fair, you'd have to accomidate them all. If you start Spanish-language classes, someone somewhere is going to sue for French-language, then Chinese. Can you imagine the cost of providing these services? On top of that, if everyone in the US grows up speaking a different language, how the hell are we supposed to communicate, even in the same nation or same state... or the same town?

Look, I'll compare illegal immigration to this:
You have a house and a family. You run a very loose house, with freedoms, wealth, whatever. You have a family business. Your life is good. Your neighbor is unhappy with his house, his life, the opression, the things his family provides. He jumps the fence and moves into your house, without your permission. He demands to be part of your family and recieve the same rights that any member of your family has. He wants in on your business. Would anyone stand for this? NO! So why do we stand for illegal immigrants who are basically doing the same thing?

Now imagine that you did oblige and provide everything for him, including an education at a private school... which you have to pay for. Yet, this is not enough. He does not speak English. Rather than bothering to learn English, he wants you and your family to learn his native language so you can communicate. He also wants the school to teach him his own language, and to offer classes in his language, because it is his "right" to be educated. And you have to pay the school for them to offer these services for "you."

He is barging into your life, demanding YOU change for and provide for HIM.

Then, a good friend of the family needs help at his store. He talks to you about hiring someone from your family. Your neighbor-turned-"family" jumps at the opportunity to work, and offers to do so at a very low rate, so naturally, he is hired. Now he has also taken away a prospective job from someone else in your family.

So now it's not enough that he's forcing you to provide for him in every way possible, he's also robbing you of what would otherwise be yours. How is any of this fair?

And why do Americans stand for it, arguing that it's their right, even though they don't belong here in the first place? Because they don't. And you can't refute that fact if they are ILLEGAL immigrants.

First, some background on Mexican society. I am sure that all of you have watched Spanish language television. If you have, you have surely noticed that most of the people on it are very fair skinned (obviously, must more Spanish blood in those people than Native blood). Contrast that with what the average illegal immigrant, very dark. Mexico is a racist society, the lighter your skin, the more opportunities that exist for you and historically, the higher you are up on the socioeconomic ladder. The darker, the less. For many of the people on the wrong side of this equation, because of their low social standing, they have never had the chance at formal education past 6th grade, and therefore, are functionally illiterate. It is kind of hard to learn a different English when you are not proficient in your native language. Undereducated and lower class standing immigrants always have a much harder time assimilating into American society. In history, just look at the struggles of the Irish and the Italians compared to the relative quick success that the highly educated Germans enjoyed. Over time, all immigrant groups are incorporated into American society. Many second-generation Mexican families have made the jump and are on the road to becoming great successes in American society.

On the subject of Illegal workers working for less than minimum wage: The American economy could not survive without it. If rising oil prices rising $.30 can stop an economic recovery, imagine what would happen if the price of food shot up by 40%. That is what would happen if illegal immigrants were paid minimum wage. Of course, I believe the ultimate solution is to make legal immigration a lot easier and to eliminate the minimum wage (my cover is blown, I am libertarian). These people only want the opportunities that we as Americans take for granted. 99.9% are willing to work their fucking ass off for it too (how many Americans are willing to pick produce for a living in 110 degree weather for sub-standard wages?), so where is the problem?

Alan, you should start a politics forum, this is interesting.

asian food makes my stomach upset. Mexican food is good. Mexico wins. Stomach wins. I win.

"It is kind of hard to learn a different English when you are not proficient in your native language. "
That doesn't explain how their children, who have lived here their entire lives and were BORN here, still don't know English. Especially if they've been put through the US education system.

And, no, you do not have to be proficient in your native language to learn an addtional language. I knew NO English before entering school. Technically speaking, my native language is Thai. Yet I am not proficient in Thai, and I had no problems learning English. I didn't demand that schools teach me Thai before teaching me English!

"Undereducated and lower class standing immigrants always have a much harder time assimilating into American society."
If they don't belong here in the first place, it shouldn't matter.

"These people only want the opportunities that we as Americans take for granted."
But they're not Americans. It is unfortunate, sure, that they were born into a place where they DON'T have those opportunities, but it's not our place to provide them.

"so where is the problem?"
The problem is that, once we start giving in and giving them citizenship status, more are going to follow. We cannot take an influx of thousands, if not millions, of illegal immigrants.

I'm not saying they don't work hard, because they do, at their jobs. I'm just saying it's not our place to provide for them where their own nation does not. If they're willing to "pick produce for a living in 110 degree weather for sub-standard wages," they should do that in their own nation. Like I said, it's unfortunate that they are where they are... but it's not our problem! We have enough to deal with here at home without having to help out every other nation's citizens.

"The American economy could not survive without it."
We've been spoiled by it. We need to start learning how to survive on our own (which I use loosely, because every nation IS pretty much dependent on every other nation). If our economy is so weak that we NEED illegal labor to keep it going, there's a deeper problem that just illegal labor.

Debate forums
http://www.alanv.org/forum/index.php?c=10
there.

Continue this discussion there. Commenting here is closed.